Ted Haggard's gay - NOT that there's anything wrong with that
So the leader of tens of thousands of evangelicals turns out to be homosexual? So what. There are a lot of worse things that a man could do.Like what, you ask? Well, how about being homosexual and telling your flock how it's evil to be homosexual. Yeah, that's pretty bad. How about encouraging your followers to vote for a CO state constitutional amendment that will make it so that gays and lesbians aren't afforded the right to engage in the same legal and social contracts (and it's the government and society and not the church that has the power to bewtow those rights as ALL marriages are simply legally recognized contracts - I'll post a real-world example later that demonstrates how little power the church really has when it comes to marriage) as heterosexuals. That's pretty bad, too, but since Haggard is married with five children, maybe deep down he thinks that the purpose of marriage is to produce offspring. Okay. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Hey - you get off on crystal meth? Well, I'm not even so bad on that as long as you don't hurt anyone else. But there's the rub...
The problem is, Ted Haggart doesn't believe any of it. Not one lick. He simply saw a group of empty people and a business opportunity. He pretended to be a good and honest follower of the Cristian faith and told them that that he knew how to assure them a place in heaven. He told them that he was one of them and took advantage of them. He told them that everyone who isn't like him and like them - homosexuals, drug users, liberals, people who don't honor their marriage vows - is evil and a scourge on society. But, in the end, it's Ted Haggard - he who weekly spoke with and advised the President of the United States of America on matters of faith - is the evil one.
It's not radical Islam, I know, but is it really that much different to use other people's faith to achieve your own ends? I don't think so. The solution, to me, is simple: think for yourself. You don't need god and you certainly don't need this guy to tell what is right and what is wrong. And, if you are a good and decent person, it is incumbent upon you to question anything that he told you. I mean, do you really want to be like Ted Haggard?
posted by PiGuy @ 4:33 PM
52 Comments:
Did you notice that (for once) the dude did not mention God?
That's because he doesn't believe God exists.
Think about it. Why would someone try to hide something, and then lie about it when found out (and then acknowledge only some of the facts when further found out) if he knew that he was already found out and that This Person would have the truth come out?
Because he knew that no one was really watching.
So, so much for all that "make God the third partner in your bed" evangelical talk about sex (posted by Red State Rabble). Ewwwww!
Yes, I did notice that he made no mention of god. I'm not too sympathetic but the guy really needs some serious therapy. He could probably make an entire career for some lucky LCSW.
"make God the third partner in your bed"? Yikes. Mrs. Pi used to get a little self-conscious when the dog was in the room! But for those of the dyslexic persuasion I guess that that's the same thing. I've never thought about that before...
"Did you notice that (for once) the dude did not mention God?
That's because he doesn't believe God exists."
Either that or he knows his sheep would cut out his tongue whilst chanting "Faggot" by the light of their burning torches...
"make God the third partner in your bed"
Yikes is right! Between me, Kate, The Boy, and his wife, there ain't much room left!
P.S. - that wasn't a complaint, we like it cozy.
;-)
I think you guys have swung too far in the other direction. I don't want to defend Haggart 100%, nor attack him 100%.
Everyone (including Christian pastors) is autonomous from God is some way or another (the ultimate judgement/penalty for this is death - which Jesus has dealt with by dying on the cross and rising from the dead). If we are God's children, we are called to live holy and blameless lives, yet still living in our sinful world. Christians don't become perfect (that's why we continue to need to trust Jesus for salvation).
The issue is: Haggart entered Christian ministry without satisfying its qualifications (living self-controlled without a hint of sexual immorality) or if he did, he didn't step aside when once becoming disqualified. I agree Haggart is a hypocryte, and this does throws into doubt all aspects of his life, but doesn't necessarily make everything he did, say or believe actually hypocrisy and thus wrong.
He has embarrassingly brought discredit to the gospel of Jesus.
We are all hypocrites in some way. Which is why we all need Jesus.
Y'know, I wrote a big long response to André's cute little comment about ghosts and boogeymen, but then I decided that it speaks for itself...
It cracks me up that people actually believe Jesus is somehow different than Zeus, Leprechauns, The Jersey Devil, Dracula, or any of the other boogeymen man has dreamed up.
Too funny, 'cept when they try to force sane people to believe in it. Or kill them when they refuse.
Well, I wouldn’t make any references to “swinging,” Andre, if I were you. ;-)
We don’t need Jesus. There’s nothing inherently wrong with us, except for the sense that there’s something wrong with us. If we allow ourselves to become ourselves (instead of forcing ourselves into artificial molds as Haggard did), we will have a lot less problems.
We are dignified creatures, not miserable sinners. Of course we’re not perfect—there is no perfection. There is no privileged frame of reference and there is no state of grace to fall from. I know first-hand how this idea scares the religious but it’s akin to realizing that the world is round. When you figure out how the round world works, you no longer carry this unnecessary burden of fear.
And Andre, you're talking to an atheist with almost 20 years of Bible study. First you say, "Christians don't become perfect," and then you're saying, "Haggart entered Christian ministry without satisfying its qualifications (living self-controlled without a hint of sexual immorality) or if he did, he didn't step aside when once becoming disqualified." Christianity says that everyone, being imperfect, is disqualified, then expects people like Haggard to be "qualified." Can't you see how ridiculous this is?
@ andre:
What we are defending is his right to be homosexual. It is Christianity that's made being gay immoral - Christ doesn't address the issue at all except to say that we should love everybody. I would assume that that includes homosexuals as well.
Further, I - and I suspect that Kristine and JanieB agree on this count - feel that it's the Christian culture into which he was indoctrinated that made Haggard feel that he had to suppress his true feelings - because they're evil! - and, thus, created and fostered the conflict within him. He couldn't resolve it, that led to his pain, and he resorted to drugs and promiscuity in an attempt to deal with his doubts and self-loathing.
Personally, I don't understand why he couldn't be gay and be a good man who spread the word of god. (Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean that I don't respect your right to do so. All Hail the First Amendment!) That is/was an artificial construct of the church - and not god or Jesus - restricting personal freedoms by means of fear. And it's clear that Haggard is one seriously frightened, paranoid dude. Maybe if there wasn't such a culture of power and fear, Haggard wouldn't have blown a gasket and, instead, used his powers for good. But how could he under those circumstances?
You're correct that this is about human weakness. But it's not about weakness on the part of the sinner. This is about the weakness of an institution that has tried to two millenia to rule when they should have, instead, been merely advising, nurturing and teaching.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
- Gandhi
IMHO, he brought no discredit to the gospels whatsoever. He only highlighted what a growing number of people see as being wrong with Christianity as it now practiced. Some people may need Christ. I'm not sure that anybody needs Christians.
I know I'm getting to your post a month later, but wanted to give you a high five anyway for this good post.
Kristine said,
"Well, I wouldn’t make any references to “swinging,” Andre, if I were you. ;-)"
Well said, dear Christine.
And PiGuy further expounded,
"Further, I - and I suspect that Kristine and JanieB agree on this count - feel that it's the Christian culture into which he was indoctrinated that made Haggard feel that he had to suppress his true feelings - because they're evil! - and, thus, created and fostered the conflict within him. He couldn't resolve it, that led to his pain, and he resorted to drugs and promiscuity in an attempt to deal with his doubts and self-loathing."
Hear, Hear. Well said, PiGuy.
dar & Janie:
Thanks.
Kristine, I must apologize for the butchering of your name. I was juggling a phone call (with a girl named Christine), Shakespeare who desperately wanted to play ball, and a chat with KaylaFace, who's very sick at the moment. Some kind of flu bug.
Oh, and the point of the last comment was supposed to be three fold...
PiGuy, you're welcome, it's well deserved.
Also, speaking of name butchering....
(peek at your side bar)
Kisses, PiGuy!
And Kisses to your Mrs.!
Hi, PiGuy!
Poor JanieBelle, don't apologize, I hear you've been sick, too.
Kisses all around! Skeptic germs! Wheee!
PiGuy, you'll be glad to hear that I'm mad at Dembski again. I don't know how many times I can throw plates at him and then make up! ;-) He's so dishonest in my opinion.
(The way I kid around it's a wonder the dude doesn't get a restraining order!)
I have no idea who this Haggard is, but since you're posting garbage at me on the cow-girls site, here's the link if you want to know what they are shrieking about.
http://opine-editorials.blogspot.com/
You can't edit people's posts here, you can only delete them.
Since I don’t believe Janie and Corporal Kate's phony lipstic show, I would never call them what they pretend that I said.
Some of “Corporal Kate’s” words of wisdom:
"You’re wasting your digital breath, lover. A closed mind will never be opened with reason. A mind that is locked by religious dogma will never be unlocked by logic, or fairness, or compassion. Religion is a mysterious disease with no known cure. Some people survive it, but in most cases it is fatal."
Is this what passes for a “civil rights movement” these days? Can you imagine Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi telling his followers to abandon reason, logic, fairness, and compassion?
I would certainly wish to engage anyone interested in a discussion predicated in logic and reason on the lack of merit of the arguments that those who oppose same-sex marriage offer up in their defense. However, reasonable, logical people are governed by a precept that I'm fairly certain that you would consider implausible if not completely impossible: that, through the use of reason and logic, someone might present evidence that requires one party to re-consider their position. Judging from the fact that you cite the content of the "Opine Ed" blog as a list of premises in a cogent argument, it is clear that you are not such a person. I mean, comparing the granting of equal rights under the law to same-sex couples in matters of marriage to treating with chemotherapy the entire family of a cancer patient merely demonstrates that you didn't read the chapter on Red Herrings in you Logic textbook. Or, perhaps I can put it in terms that you pretend to understand:
Red Herring != true or convincing premise
BTW, it is the agents of government that currently stand in opposition to granting this right to same-sex couples despite a bevy of requests, pleas, and arguments on the part of the people (you remember the people, don't you? You know, the ones who actually rule in a democracy...) that they govern - a far cry from institutional governmental "whimsy", I'd say - and, therefore, if any opression on the part of the government has occurred, it is clear that said behavior has been imposed upon those attempting to change the current legal definition of marriage.
I appreciate that you're so strong in your convictions and feel the need to stand up for what you belive and might even admire you if not for the degree of divisiveness that your position engenders. However, you must understand that you position is just that - it is a belief and, as such, is unassailable from the standpoint of the sort of logic for which you espouse such fondness. Therefore, I cannot conceive of any motivation for which I would wish to engage you in such a discussion.
Perhaps if you didn't think that there was some sort of virtue associated with being deleted or banned from commenting at a person's blog (is that the most profound trump card that a person who asserts that his or her opinion is founded on irrefutible logic can come up with?) I might see an open and frank discussion with you as useful and even helful to an understanding of the issue. However, I feel that you desire no understanding other than your own fearful and prejudicial views on the matter and I will not waste any more energy engaging you.
PiGuy,
Do forgive my error in overlooking you while passing out my New Year's blessings.
May you also be the ongoing recipient of Molly's Wish throughout the New Year.
Kisses to you and Mrs. Pi,
Janie, Kate, and The Boy
Happy New Year, Piguy!!!!
I am new here, just saying hello :)
<3 sagepowder
Welcome, 3!
Happy New Year to you, JB and Kristine, as well. And I'm all for Molly's Wish, Janie!
Je frappe a la porte chez Chateau Pi.
*Knock-knock-knock* May I borrow some liquid nit., please?
Hey, what are all these used car salesmen doing here? *Boot!*
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sorry, Kristine. I've only got about a cup left and we're going freeze Tastykakes over the weekend. You like Butterscotch Krumpets?
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You like Butterscotch Krumpets?
Only if they're baked at copper's melting point! ;-)
Wow! The guy did this in his backyard? That's impressive. But, on the other hand, I guess our ancestors figured it out thousands of years ago (when was the Bronze Age?) so it's not necessarily hi-tech.
Either way, very cool. I wonder if I can get Mrs. Pi to let build a smelter in the backyard? Thanks for the link.
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Um, hi! Long time no hear! You're okay, right?
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